LEILA FADEL, HOST:
For more, we turn to Elie Honig. He's a former federal prosecutor and author of the new book "When You Come At The King: Inside DOJ's Pursuit Of The President, From Nixon To Trump." Good morning, and thanks for being on the program.
ELIE HONIG: Thanks for having me, Leila.
FADEL: So how big of a victory is this for Donald Trump?
HONIG: Well, I guess it depends entirely on how you define a victory. If one defines victory as we got an indictment, and we will get to march Letitia James into a courthouse and have her sit at the defendant's table, then it's a victory. If you mark victory by upholding the standards of independence of the Justice Department, it is certainly not that. And if you define victory as ultimately obtaining a conviction, that remains to be seen.
FADEL: Yeah. I mean, I guess I want to know how unusual it is for the president to openly call for the prosecution of his perceived political enemies, urge the Justice Department to do that. When a prosecutor doesn't do it, replace them with their own lawyer. I mean, how unprecedented is all this involvement?
HONIG: Well, I think we tend to overuse that word unprecedented. But I can affirm for you, this is truly unprecedented. My book, which you just alluded to, goes back every modern investigation back to Watergate. And we've never seen. We've never seen a president overtly, explicitly, publicly declare I want these people by name. Letitia James is now the second person on that list who has been indicted, joining Jim Comey. I want these people charged, and it's overtly political. And that's the line that's crossed here. I mean, this case, sure, it's about whether Letitia James lied on her mortgage applications, but much bigger picture, it's about the powers of the presidency and the limitations on that power when it comes to the independence of the Justice Department.
FADEL: You hear often from the White House, from Republicans, well, the Democrats started it. They came after us. I mean, Letitia James successfully went after Trump in court. What's the difference between what James' prosecution of Trump was and what's - what Trump and the DOJ's now case against James is?
HONIG: Well, there's some truth to that. The Democrats did start this. I mean, Letitia James did start this. She overtly, explicitly promised and fundraised throughout her 2018 campaign for attorney general, essentially, vote for me and I will nail Donald Trump for something. At times she said she'd indict him. It would be money laundering. It would be something with his real estate business. She did end up bringing a civil lawsuit against him, not a criminal prosecution. It was ultimately, I would say, not successful. I mean, she got a verdict from a judge and a...
FADEL: Right.
HONIG: ...Massive fine attached to it, but a New York state appeals court...
FADEL: Threw it out.
HONIG: ...Threw out the entire fine. The end result of that is a $0 judgment. So I think it's a mixed verdict, at most. That said, none of that justifies the president of the United States weaponizing his own Justice Department to seek retributive justice. I mean, I think we have to be clear here. Both of those things are true. Letitia James absolutely targeted Donald Trump in her campaign as attorney general. Donald Trump is absolutely targeting her now as payback. Neither of them is OK, and I would argue what the president is doing because he is the president is worse and more corrosive.
FADEL: What are the dangers of breaking down the barriers between the Department of Justice and the White House? And are there ways to put the guardrails back?
HONIG: It's a great question. There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution. There is no law passed by Congress that says DOJ must be or should be independent. Rather, that is the result of a decades and really centuries-long tradition and understanding and best governmental practice. I was at DOJ half the time under a Republican president, half the time under Democratic president. It made no difference. That is the essence of what DOJ is and has been. And when we break that down, when a president says this wall of independence, I'm just taking it down, that is incredibly dangerous because no other entity within the federal government has the ability to deprive civilians of their liberty. Only DOJ has that, and when you politicize that and make it subject to the whims of the president or any other powerful person, we're going down a very dangerous path.
FADEL: Elie Honig is a former prosecutor, author and CNN analyst. Elie, thank you.
HONIG: Thanks very much.
(SOUNDBITE OF DIAMOND D'S "WHEN IT POURS IT RAINS (FEAT JOHN DOE) [INSTRUMENTAL]") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
