MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Dolly Parton was never afraid to reinvent herself, and she did that again after she was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. She didn't think she deserved the honor, so she went and made a rock album in 2023. It was called "Rockstar."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ROCKSTAR")
DOLLY PARTON: (Singing) Rock star - I stand before my mirror, play and sing and dream, someday.
MARTIN: Three years ago, Nashville-based singer-songwriter Hayley Williams of the Grammy-winning band Paramore interviewed Parton about the album and other things. And Hayley Williams is with us now. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining us.
HAYLEY WILLIAMS: Hey. Thanks for having me.
MARTIN: What was it like when you met Dolly Parton? Had you met her before?
WILLIAMS: No, that was my first time. It was so surreal. And I just - I tried to, like, keep myself present the whole time, not float out of my body.
MARTIN: (Laughter) Why were you going to float out of your body?
WILLIAMS: It was just, like, you know, she's our matriarch. I mean, here in Nashville especially, it's like, we really feel this loss in such a layered way. And then, of course, as a writer and as someone who, like, just has always only ever longed to be a poet, I look to her as, like, one of my favorites, you know? I mean, her story is incredible. Her storytelling is incredible. And I think all the things that she stands for and the way that she moved through the world as a creative and as an artist, like, I think most of us want to be like that, you know? I...
MARTIN: Or we should (laughter).
WILLIAMS: Yeah, we should want to.
MARTIN: Are you drawing inspiration from that, especially because at this point, you yourself have had a long career and you've kind of grown in the business and had to grapple with, you know, who do I want to be?
WILLIAMS: The way that she could write from any point of view I think speaks to her empathy. Like, her storytelling - like, she could put herself in anyone's shoes, even if she wouldn't be caught dead in them. You know what I'm saying? Like, one song's about, you know, throwing rocks at a woman who married the love of her life, and then you turn around and she's the woman who married the man, and she's afraid of this man being taken from her. You know, she wrote about unrequited love, forbidden love with such an open heart. And when I write about matters of the heart, I do it so guarded. And I've been listening to her pretty much nonstop since the news broke yesterday, and that's what keeps coming up for me is, like, there's a softness to her strength that I need to continue to learn to embody not only as a writer, but as a woman, as a person.
And she was a musician. You know, like, that gets overlooked a lot, but her guitar picking - like, her finger picking is crazy - with acrylic nails is even crazier. When you're that great of a writer, you don't really need to be able to play like that. She just kind of had all of it in spades.
MARTIN: I always wondered how she managed to play with those nails. I have to be honest.
(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAMS: Exactly.
MARTIN: I never got to ask her. I'm like, wait, what? But, you know, it's funny 'cause you talked about how open-hearted she was in her relationships with people in her work, but she famously avoided politics. I'm wondering if you have any understanding of why she made her choice - made the choice that way in her career - which isn't to say she didn't do things. I mean, she did...
WILLIAMS: Sure.
MARTIN: ...Do powerful things. Like, I remember when she not only donated a large sum to the research into the COVID vaccine, but she made sure to get that shot on camera so that everyone could see it...
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MARTIN: ...See her getting that shot. But I'm wondering if you have any understanding of, like, why she chose to kind of walk her politics or convictions in that way.
WILLIAMS: We talked about that in the interview. It was one of the things I wanted to bring up to her the most because I had just gotten done with an album cycle of, like, sort of screaming from a stage every night. We were getting ready for a major election, and I just had a lot of anger kind of in my body. And she said, I seldom lose my temper, but I often use it. And I thought, oh, my God, I have to - I can't forget this. This is so important for me, that I feel like I was meant to hear these words.
Because she was smart, you know? I think she would say she wasn't political in the same way she said she wasn't a feminist. And then you look at her life, and you're like, OK, maybe this is a great example of actions speaking louder than words and needing to read the fine print with people. She understood nuance. And I think, like, she belonged in any room, and she never ostracized anyone. And I think because of that, people could feel the frequency that she was living at, and it sort of challenged us all to rise to that level with her. And I could learn a lot from the way that Dolly used her temper.
MARTIN: I remember when you spoke with her in 2023, she said that she had listened to your music and she liked it. And didn't she offer to go on tour with you? Is that right? Do I have that right?
WILLIAMS: She said we needed to take the rock songs on the road together, and I was like, just let me know when to hop in the van. I'll be there.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: I spoke earlier this year with soprano Renee Fleming and the banjo player Bela Fleck. They did this joint album, "The Fiddle And The Drum," and Dolly appears in this beautiful duet rendition of "In The Pines." They were never in the same room together. I asked Renee about this. I said, oh, my goodness, you sound, like, perfectly in sync. What was it like to be there with her? And she was like, we were never in the same room.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "IN THE PINES")
DOLLY PARTON AND RENEE FLEMING: (Singing) In the pines, in the pines, where the sun never shines.
WILLIAMS: Ooh.
MARTIN: Right?
WILLIAMS: Yeah. Oh.
MARTIN: What - I'm not a singer. I wish I were, but. What does it take to do that?
WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, she - this is where I think her musicianship also comes in, and it, like, really holds hands with her empathetic heart. I feel like she can put herself in any scenario and she belongs there because she can see it from that point of view. Whether or not it came naturally to her, she'll make you believe she's in that story. And, God, I've never heard that rendition of "In The Pines," and I can't wait to go listen to it right after this 'cause that's exactly the kind of song I want to hear her sing right now. That's really, really cool.
MARTIN: Before we let you go and while we're all still kind of dealing with the loss of this person who you just, for some reason, never thought - you just can't imagine her not being here...
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
MARTIN: Is there a song of hers that you are really going to keep close now?
WILLIAMS: I have loved "Wildflowers" for quite some time now. Wildflowers don't care where they grow. You know, the way she wrote this song about what it feels like to, to me, come from a small town and sort of want to be a part of the world.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WILDFLOWERS")
PARTON: (Singing) When a flower grows wild, it can always survive.
DOLLY PARTON, LINDA RONSTADT AND EMMYLOU HARRIS: (Singing) Wildflowers don't care where they grow.
WILLIAMS: Like, to me, it feels like one of those songs that, like, a heroine in a film would sing about their biggest, highest wishes and dreams and where they want to go in their life. I listen to "Wildflowers" and I'm like, this is a song I could've used when I was growing up in Meridian, Mississippi, and I - some part of my soul was, like, longing to get out and be a part of a wider world. And I think the lyrics to that song just are such a comfort that someone as gracious and as soft and strong and all the words we can put, you know, under the umbrella of Dolly would sing about, you know, wanting to leave, but also being so rooted and, like, having what she needs no matter where she goes. You know, living a life on the road kind of is like being a wildflower. And it really - I don't know. It really comforts me, and I think about it every time I leave home. I've been doing that a lot lately. So now I think I'll listen to it. You know, I'll probably cry more listening to it now. But it's always meant a lot to me, and I'm really happy I got to say that to her.
MARTIN: That's Hayley Williams, the lead singer of Paramore. Hayley Williams, thank you so much.
WILLIAMS: Thank you. I appreciate it. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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